How long would our batteries last on a track day?

[taycanstuff]

Hi All,

Considering whether to stretch the legs of the 4S on a track day, with a full "tank" of 200+ miles, how many miles or how long would the Macan last on the track giving it the full beans?

Not seen any fast chargers available on the circuits. I'm thinking maybe half a day - 20 minute sessions per hour? Not sure if the harsh breaking would give it enough regen, or should I not be worried.

Cheers.

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[daveo4EV]

typically not very long - there are a few problems with tracking an EV

• battery thermals are normally the first to cause problems
• actual consumption is high enough that you can't run for very long if thermals were not an issue
• EV's are heavy - and any street tire simply doesn't hold up to repeated laps leading to loss of traction

I've tracked both my Model 3 Performance and Taycan Turbo - they were both fun "while it lasted" but both also had abbreviated sessions vs. what you can typically do with a gas car

if you don't have fast charging at the track that becomes another factor…

I be surprised if you could get two full 20 min sessions before running out of juice, if you don't come off track due to battery thermals early…

here is my detailed write up from when I tracked my Taycan…I was able to track the Taycan for about 12 minutes of a 25 minute session before I had reduced power due to battery temp @ 132F - at that point in the session I was also at 50% battery having started at 98% going onto to the track - that equates to about 6-7 laps before I was "overheated" and "down on power" and only had 50% battery left.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...d-on-driving-lap-data-impressions-added.2923/

the Taycan's performance was deeply impressive - and was able to pass GT3's uphill between turns 6 & 8 - but stamina is/was lacking - so you have a great car for for about 12-15 minutes, but then need to come off track and rest the vehicle due to a number of factors (battery thermals, power consumption, tire integrity) - if there is no fast charging at the track that will add additional complexity…

I also provided some "demo" laps for a PCA student of mine once at Thunderhill West's 2.x mile course - it's a short more twisty course with only one medium long straight but lots of twists and very short burst "straight aways" - the Taycan was a terror and ate that track alive - passing most anythinng I could get in front of me - instant/ample torque on short straights trumps ICE vehicle's - I was at the track just two weeks ago and ran into some fellow instructors - and they still remember me running my Taycan around the West course over 2+ years late - deeply impressive how quick the car was on a short twisty course - one said…

"you'd get behind me and simply squirt past me like nothing I've ever seen!! You were the quickest car on course" he was in a 911 Turbo

- but again not for a full session, and ultimately you end up down on power due to battery thermals…

regen is not much of a factor (other than contributing to battery thermals) - you should be braking hard enough for each corner than you're deep into the friction brake, which will now wear at an increase rate due to the weight of the vehicle, the entry speed, and the short braking zones.

I've not yet tracked my Macan - and have no plans to do so. So I can not speak to if the Macan's thermals will last longer vs. the Taycan - but even with no thermals you'd be hard pressed to run more than one full session due to increased power consumption…would be my guess. And then when you come off track you'll have to charge…

EV's + Track = super fun while it lasts - but it doesn't last very long - all day is a stretch - 2 full sessions would be best case…based on my Taycan/Model 3 experience - and your battery will be nearly empty and need to charge.

I welcome any actual data for Macan on track (battery temps, consumption, and stamina) - but I don't expect it to be dramatically better than Taycan…

EV's are _GREAT_ on track performance wise, but lack "stamina" - very hard to complete a normal full 20-30 minute track day session if you're quick - but tuck a Taycan into the apex of turn 6 @ Laguna Seca (full on-camber corner) and punch the throttle and watch/feel 5xxx lbs of world class sport sedan teleport uphill to the entrance of turn 8 (the cork screw) and you'll be converted to this whole "EV thing"…it's simply stunning and impressive and no gas car can match it - until you have to come off track @ lap 6 or 7 (early and before checkered flag is shown).

 

[daveo4EV]

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/got-in-a-few-laps-at-cota-in-an-e-macan.26740/

 

[daveo4EV]

the Macan has a 100 kWh raw capacity battery - Porsche says they share 95 kWh of that capacity with us owners. If you start at 100% SOC and come off track at 5% SOC - that's 95% of 95 kWh or 90.25 kWh of power…

Gasoline contains about 33 kWh/gallon of gas of "raw" physical power/energy…so 90.25 kWh of usable power is about the equivalent of 2.73 gallons of gasoline in terms of capacity.

when running my GT3 around the track at full pace (for me) I get about 8 mpg - I can complete about 9-10 laps in a 20 minute session - each laps @ thunderhill east is 2.866 miles (3 mile course) - so 9 laps @ 2.866 milies each is 25.7 miles @ 8 mpg = 3.22 gallons of gasoline let's call it 3.5 gallons for 9 laps

3.5 gallons times 33 kwh = 115.5 kWh needed to run 9 laps in a 992.1 911 GT3 - give or take.

your Macan 4S doesn't have 115 kWh's of fuel capacity.

 

[sor]

@daveo4EV good info, and I think it’s a good ballpark. Just for some reference, was that a 2020 Taycan (first year), and a 79kwh battery or the larger?

I suspect you’d find thermals and range greatly improved in Porsche EVs since the first round, but wouldn’t expect a miracle of difference either.

 

[daveo4EV]

hmmm Macan 4S @ 509 HP is about the same as a 911 GT3 in terms of HP

380 kW "max demand" vs. 95 kWh fuel capacity

95 kWh / 380 kW = .25 hours - or 15 min of capacity at "full" power

now 380 kW is launch control - and we know you're not tracking in launch control mode - so the question is how much of the 380 kW capacity are you allowed at full throttle but not launch control -I'm going to SWAG 320 kW for "sports plus mode" - 95 kWh / 320 kW = .29xxx or 17.8 min of capacity at full throttle…and we can work backward from there knowing we're not at full throttle the entire time on track - but alternating between full throttle and full brake …

with out more data i can't estimate how long you can actually stay on track - but you have less than 3 gallons of gasoline for a 500 HP vehicle - it's not very long

 

[sor]

the Macan has a 100 kWh raw capacity battery - Porsche says they share 95 kWh of that capacity with us owners. If you start at 100% SOC and come off track at 5% SOC - that's 95% of 95 kWh or 90.25 kWh of power…

Gasoline contains about 33 kWh/gallon of gas of "raw" physical power/energy…so 90.25 kWh of usable power is about the equivalent of 2.73 gallons of gasoline in terms of capacity.

when running my GT3 around the track at full pace (for me) I get about 8 mpg - I can complete about 9-10 laps in a 20 minute session - each laps @ thunderhill east is 2.866 miles (3 mile course) - so 9 laps @ 2.866 milies each is 25.7 miles @ 8 mpg = 3.22 gallons of gasoline let's call it 3.5 gallons for 9 laps

3.5 gallons times 33 kwh = 115.5 kWh needed to run 9 laps in a 992.1 911 GT3 - give or take.

your Macan 4S doesn't have 115 kWh's of fuel capacity.

Don’t forget to include the efficiency - only about 40-50% of your energy from gas goes into moving your car, the EV is going to be 90% or more.

If you multiply 115kwh burned for 9 laps by 40-50%, it used 46-57kwh to actually move that distance. The rest of that energy is just heat, hot gasses, etc.
Of course this is all back of napkin because that number will change a lot with vehicle weight and other things.

 

[daveo4EV]

@daveo4EV good info, and I think it’s a good ballpark. Just for some reference, was that a 2020 Taycan (first year), and a 79kwh battery or the larger?

I suspect you’d find thermals and range greatly improved in Porsche EVs since the first round, but wouldn’t expect a miracle of difference either.

2020 Taycan Turbo bigger battery not the small one - Porsche has been very very cagey about characterizing any quantitative improvements in the J1.2 Taycan - even dodging a direct question about thermals at a "tech talk" with a Porsche drive train engineer

my internal contact inside Porsche confirms battery thermals are the main reason you still can not run a Taycan from 100% to 0% at "full-send" for the entire during of the battery's power output - basically if you're dong a "full-send" drive the thermals generated by the discharge rate overwhelm the cooling capacity for the battery system…so at some point during a full-send Porsche will dial back the max power output allowed to preserve the battery's longevity because they can not keep it below XX-F degrees under full discharge condtions…

base on my personal Experience the J1.1 Taycan is good for about 12-16 minutes of flat out tracke performance (closer to 12 vs. 16) - which is just about what you need to accomplish a Nurburgring official lap time run (outlap + one lap flyer) - which is going to equate to about 15 minutes of high performance driving.

thermals make the Taycan about a 15 minutes vehicle
power consumption make the Taycan about a 30 minutes vehicle based on increased consumption

I expect the Macan to be in similar territory as there has been no step function improvement in this space, rather relentless incremental improvement - but not enough to change the overall equation.

 

[daveo4EV]

Don’t forget to include the efficiency - only about 40-50% of your energy from gas goes into moving your car, the EV is going to be 90% or more.

If you multiply 115kwh burned for 9 laps by 40-50%, it used 46-57kwh to actually move that distance.
Of course this is all back of napkin because that number will change a lot with vehicle weight and other things.

yeah it all gets muddy really really quick - but at full power you still need to feed 320 kW to achieve 500 HP - so at 90% efficiency you need 355 kW to get a raw 500 out of the EV motors.

so I think the math actually works the other way - the ICE is 25% efficient so to get a raw 500 HP you need 1280 kW worth of gasoline power…

but the main point is - if you're taking an EV on track - you've got less than 3 gallons of gasoline equivalent power to work with - I wouldn't expect my GT3 to run more than about 6-7 laps with 3 gallons of gas @ Laguna seca maybe even only 4-5 laps.

 

[taycanstuff]

Thanks @daveo4EV that's really helpful.
I thought it may at least get half a day, but by the sounds of things, best case is that I do half a 20 minute session, rest and skip the next 1 session, then one more session at the most before I would need to call it a day and have enough in the tank to drive home.
There's no charging onsite.
A real shame, as it looks like even the 4S would decimate a few things on track quite easily and handle well too.
There's no option to open the front bonnet to cool the engine after a good run either like ICE cars.

 

[daveo4EV]

Thanks @daveo4EV that's really helpful.
I thought it may at least get half a day, but by the sounds of things, best case is that I do half a 20 minute session, rest and skip the next 1 session, then one more session at the most before I would need to call it a day and have enough in the tank to drive home.
There's no charging onsite.
A real shame, as it looks like even the 4S would decimate a few things on track quite easily and handle well too.
There's no option to open the front bonnet to cool the engine after a good run either like ICE cars.

no doubt EV's are a terror while they are on "peak" performance - and yes it will do very very well again ICE vehicle's given it's awesome drive train and ample power - the question is how well can the Macan maintain peak performance under back to back laps, and then there is consumption which is likely to be quite high - 50% consumption for 2/3rd's of a session would not surprise me.

honestly I don't know what the Macan 4S can or can not do - but based on Taycan there are real limits to be consider, but we won't know until someone tries.

I'd be particularly interested in the thermal stamina of the Macan under back to back lapping…but I'm not willing to waste a track day with my Macan to find out (I'm sorry to the community - someone else gets this glory of actual data).

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