"Can EV chargers act like gas stations? That won’t be easy" Article

[Deleted member 4581]

https://www.eenews.net/articles/can-ev-chargers-act-like-gas-stations-that-wont-be-easy/

 

[epirali]

Great article, lots of good points. Sadly it also said the following (which is not surprising):

”Unlike gas stations, which almost always have at least one working pump, charging stations have a reliability problem. Earlier this year, Plug In America did a survey of over 3,500 EV drivers and found that 54 percent said they had had problems with public chargers, most often finding them broken.”

 

[Jhenson29]

1. Mystery Pricing - it’s going to be more confusing if people end up being charged by kW, kWh, and hours. But each potentially has a reason. It seems like we’d have to get closer to gas stations where all cars can basically fill at the same rate and it’s all fast enough and there are enough stations that time doesn’t really matter.
2. Broken too often - I don’t use public charging, but I’ve definitely been reading about others issues. 99% uptime seems like a reasonable (if not minimal) goal. Or install lots to get more redundancy.
3. How fast is “fast”- this one is troubling. That they consider 350kW to be the high end and even then questioning its value…if we were making an equivalent with gas stations, they would be closer to 4 or 5 mW. More than an order of magnitude faster. On the one hand, it’s a shame to invest a ton on slow 350kW chargers…but it also sucks having minimal infrastructure. I don’t think we have to reach 5mW charging…but we need significantly better than what we have right now. Issues to deal with for both cars and charging in general….
4. Standards - yes please. Standardize
5. Credit cards - seems like this could potentially improve overall uptime of chargers and quality of life for people to have something to fall back on. Maybe not necessary depending on how ubiquitous P&C becomes and how well/consistent it works.
6. Open 24/7 - that’s a tough one. Gas stations aren’t required, but it seems like most are. And there are so many around that even if some aren’t, there are others nearby that are. There are so few charging stations that having one closed at night could cause bigger problems for people. Expansion of infrastructure probably helps this a lot.
7. The space is too small - I’ve never understood the parking space model that I see in so many charging station pictures. Other than it fits with the idea that “this is going to take a while…”. Pull through makes more sense to me. Seems like pull through alleviates issues with short charging cables reaching different vehicle charging port locations as well.
8. Hard to locate - yes. Compared to gas stations which are advertised on the highway and easy to spot generally. Someone will probably correct me that I can use an app or in car nav for this. I can do that for gas stations also. But I almost never do (just sometimes when needing to refill a rental before dropping off at an airport if I’m not already familiar with the area). Because I don’t have to. Because they’re advertised, obvious, and everywhere.
   

 

[tigerbalm]

#4 Standards - yes please. Standardize

Virtually everything said in that article applies to Europe as well – except #4. CCS adoption is one thing Europe has gotten right.

 

[Jhenson29]

CCS adoption is one thing Europe has gotten right,

Agreed. Not necessary on CCS specifically (don’t have experience or preference), but on standardizing it. ???

 

[TycanNewHampshire]

one thing that we could all benefit from is having an 'attendant on-duty' at these charging stations and train them with the ability to maintain, troubleshoot and keep the charging banks running as advertised.

There needs to be more attention to the network that supports the vehicles that we are being told will have to be purchased in the near future (EV's).

 

[porsche_coyote]

1. Mystery Pricing - it’s going to be more confusing if people end up being charged by kW, kWh, and hours. But each potentially has a reason. It seems like we’d have to get closer to gas stations where all cars can basically fill at the same rate and it’s all fast enough and there are enough stations that time doesn’t really matter.
2. Broken too often - I don’t use public charging, but I’ve definitely been reading about others issues. 99% uptime seems like a reasonable (if not minimal) goal. Or install lots to get more redundancy.
3. How fast is “fast”- this one is troubling. That they consider 350kW to be the high end and even then questioning its value…if we were making an equivalent with gas stations, they would be closer to 4 or 5 mW. More than an order of magnitude faster. On the one hand, it’s a shame to invest a ton on slow 350kW chargers…but it also sucks having minimal infrastructure. I don’t think we have to reach 5mW charging…but we need significantly better than what we have right now. Issues to deal with for both cars and charging in general….
4. Standards - yes please. Standardize
5. Credit cards - seems like this could potentially improve overall uptime of chargers and quality of life for people to have something to fall back on. Maybe not necessary depending on how ubiquitous P&C becomes and how well/consistent it works.
6. Open 24/7 - that’s a tough one. Gas stations aren’t required, but it seems like most are. And there are so many around that even if some aren’t, there are others nearby that are. There are so few charging stations that having one closed at night could cause bigger problems for people. Expansion of infrastructure probably helps this a lot.
7. The space is too small - I’ve never understood the parking space model that I see in so many charging station pictures. Other than it fits with the idea that “this is going to take a while…”. Pull through makes more sense to me. Seems like pull through alleviates issues with short charging cables reaching different vehicle charging port locations as well.
8. Hard to locate - yes. Compared to gas stations which are advertised on the highway and easy to spot generally. Someone will probably correct me that I can use an app or in car nav for this. I can do that for gas stations also. But I almost never do (just sometimes when needing to refill a rental before dropping off at an airport if I’m not already familiar with the area). Because I don’t have to. Because they’re advertised, obvious, and everywhere.

I'll add 9: sheltered from the elements. One nice thing about most gas stations is that they're covered, so you don't need to get soaked while fueling your vehicle. I've gotten properly wet a few times wrestling with charge cables in the rain. It sucks because not only do you get rained on, but handling the wet cables is a mess.

 

[JimBob]

Hard to see. But if I put a coffee maker in my garage with a box of doughnuts, I think I've got it mostly covered.

 

[riburn3]

one thing that we could all benefit from is having an 'attendant on-duty' at these charging stations and train them with the ability to maintain, troubleshoot and keep the charging banks running as advertised.

There needs to be more attention to the network that supports the vehicles that we are being told will have to be purchased in the near future (EV's).

I agree.

Ultimately though, we are in the growing stages of EV charging infrastructure, and EVs are unique in that the vast majority of folks fill up their car every night in their garage. I'm sure many of us have gone months or longer without ever needing any sort of public charging infrastructure.

Clearly as we shift to more EV's, the question begs, how many public chargers are really necessary? It shouldn't be nearly as many as gas stations, and EV's have the convenience of being able to charge in areas atypical to gas cars, for example I "refueled" my car at Barnes & Noble last week on a level 2 charger that added a solid chunk of range while I did some X-mas shopping.

Ultimately I think the gas companies/stations, that decide to add fast charging infrastructure to their locations are going to have a leg up. Right now I don't think it's feasible to keep an attendant at every location, as those folks might go days or in some cases weeks depending on location without a single person coming by. But a mixed use gas station that has convenience with a store, bathrooms, and staff on site if something goes wrong is a good solution.

 

[TomP]

Well located and designed charging like shown in the link would be a good start. Out of the weather, well labeled, attended and a place to grab a coffee and walk the dog.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...rt-now-open-in-braintree-from-gridserve.3155/

I don't think many ICE owners watching us charge in the back of the Walmart parking lot are thinking "yeah, I want to do that"

 

[TycanNewHampshire]

I agree.

Ultimately though, we are in the growing stages of EV charging infrastructure, and EVs are unique in that the vast majority of folks fill up their car every night in their garage. I'm sure many of us have gone months or longer without ever needing any sort of public charging infrastructure.

Clearly as we shift to more EV's, the question begs, how many public chargers are really necessary? It shouldn't be nearly as many as gas stations, and EV's have the convenience of being able to charge in areas atypical to gas cars, for example I "refueled" my car at Barnes & Noble last week on a level 2 charger that added a solid chunk of range while I did some X-mas shopping.

Ultimately I think the gas companies/stations, that decide to add fast charging infrastructure to their locations are going to have a leg up. Right now I don't think it's feasible to keep an attendant at every location, as those folks might go days or in some cases weeks depending on location without a single person coming by. But a mixed use gas station that has convenience with a store, bathrooms, and staff on site if something goes wrong is a good solution.

I think you make really good points and your model/thoughts hold up to scrutiny....until they don't.
What I mean, is that this assumes that normal, daily/weekly behaviors continue for every aspect that we use the vehicle.
I will give the example of going on a trip, or visiting relatives, or perhaps working per diem or going on a business trip that you drive to places where you don't have access to a level2 charger. Heck, even at hotels that have a charger or two installed, it is a roll of the dice that you are the one that is lucky enough to get that plug overnight. I have had a lot of trips this summer up and down the east coast and every hotel that I booked for the specific reason of having a charger....I was unable to use, due to another guest being plugged in. Hotels were reluctant to see who the guest was and ask if they could swap out. One Leaf even sat charged in the same spot for the 3 days I was there and never moved.....I am sure it was at 100%. My tangent on that is, even taking a 100' extension cable with a 240v or 120v plug, is not always an option depending on where you have access to an outlet. So, your scenario really only applies to when your vehicle has the ability to be home, for overnight charging.
Now that this is out of the way, there are really two scenarios that our Taycan has a use case for. Work/errands commute and trips (do we agree, there is no 'camping', or 'trailer-ing', or using it to haul things or take it to the dump?).
I think we can agree, scenario 1, home/work/errands commute is pretty much a non-issue. There may be the occasional need to charge at a mall, or the like when running more trips than expected, lets say after work.
However, for Scenario 2, trips/work trips/family visits/etc. This becomes the challenge. We tend to be a society that clusters our vacations all at the same time, due to school, holiday and cultural reasons that allow us all to be off of work at the same time to meet with others we have not in a while. Well, when we don't have a demand on the network for 90% of the year, the spike during these vacations seems to break the system. All the while, this is when we need the network to perform at its best....where we are at our most vulnerable (away from home, no lv2 system available, no support network of friends/family, unfamiliar with local area, perhaps in between destination points, etc.).
This Scenario 2 is the value prop of what makes an EV a viable option to purchase as a vehicle. For without it, you don't have a vehicle that provides you the freedom to travel. This demand spike is what the network needs to plan for and operate within. This is why it is so critical in my view that any challenge with the Network, needs to be addressed in a timely manner during the times when you have the option to drive home and you actually have an alternative. If we don't aggressively push for this support, it will not be there when it is needed the most and you are out of options.
There is future scenario 3. More economical EV ownership, which will mean that more owners that live in apartments, perhaps on campus or renting a residence that does not allow home charging. We will then have many more vehicles 'dropped off' by their friends to charge, while they run errands. The longer this takes, the less bays that are available, the less chance you have for you being able to charge when you 'need' it.
My view is that we need to keep pressing for change and attention in fixing the banks that are currently installed and demanding that the fixes are done in a timely manner. Otherwise, the next vacation time, we will he having a line of cars waiting to charge while a fleet of slower charging cars are sitting for 1-hour while you would only need 15min to go from 5-80% if the bay was working at the maximum kW that the Taycan can take.
My point: don't get complacent when you have an alternative....make the complaint, so when you need it, it will be there for you!

 

[riburn3]

I think you make really good points and your model/thoughts hold up to scrutiny....until they don't.
What I mean, is that this assumes that normal, daily/weekly behaviors continue for every aspect that we use the vehicle.
I will give the example of going on a trip, or visiting relatives, or perhaps working per diem or going on a business trip that you drive to places where you don't have access to a level2 charger. Heck, even at hotels that have a charger or two installed, it is a roll of the dice that you are the one that is lucky enough to get that plug overnight. I have had a lot of trips this summer up and down the east coast and every hotel that I booked for the specific reason of having a charger....I was unable to use, due to another guest being plugged in. Hotels were reluctant to see who the guest was and ask if they could swap out. One Leaf even sat charged in the same spot for the 3 days I was there and never moved.....I am sure it was at 100%. My tangent on that is, even taking a 100' extension cable with a 240v or 120v plug, is not always an option depending on where you have access to an outlet. So, your scenario really only applies to when your vehicle has the ability to be home, for overnight charging.
Now that this is out of the way, there are really two scenarios that our Taycan has a use case for. Work/errands commute and trips (do we agree, there is no 'camping', or 'trailer-ing', or using it to haul things or take it to the dump?).
I think we can agree, scenario 1, home/work/errands commute is pretty much a non-issue. There may be the occasional need to charge at a mall, or the like when running more trips than expected, lets say after work.
However, for Scenario 2, trips/work trips/family visits/etc. This becomes the challenge. We tend to be a society that clusters our vacations all at the same time, due to school, holiday and cultural reasons that allow us all to be off of work at the same time to meet with others we have not in a while. Well, when we don't have a demand on the network for 90% of the year, the spike during these vacations seems to break the system. All the while, this is when we need the network to perform at its best....where we are at our most vulnerable (away from home, no lv2 system available, no support network of friends/family, unfamiliar with local area, perhaps in between destination points, etc.).
This Scenario 2 is the value prop of what makes an EV a viable option to purchase as a vehicle. For without it, you don't have a vehicle that provides you the freedom to travel. This demand spike is what the network needs to plan for and operate within. This is why it is so critical in my view that any challenge with the Network, needs to be addressed in a timely manner during the times when you have the option to drive home and you actually have an alternative. If we don't aggressively push for this support, it will not be there when it is needed the most and you are out of options.
There is future scenario 3. More economical EV ownership, which will mean that more owners that live in apartments, perhaps on campus or renting a residence that does not allow home charging. We will then have many more vehicles 'dropped off' by their friends to charge, while they run errands. The longer this takes, the less bays that are available, the less chance you have for you being able to charge when you 'need' it.
My view is that we need to keep pressing for change and attention in fixing the banks that are currently installed and demanding that the fixes are done in a timely manner. Otherwise, the next vacation time, we will he having a line of cars waiting to charge while a fleet of slower charging cars are sitting for 1-hour while you would only need 15min to go from 5-80% if the bay was working at the maximum kW that the Taycan can take.
My point: don't get complacent when you have an alternative....make the complaint, so when you need it, it will be there for you!

Definitely agree with all of the above. I think location especially dictates your EV experience. I live in West Texas and travel along I-10. EV's are not as dime a dozen as the West Coast and some areas of the East Coast here. I've literally road tripped across Texas on the EA network, without seeing a single other EV and have never had a destination charge issue at a hotel. This despite there being more EV's on the road than every before. Anecdotal to be sure and clearly this will change going forward as the government is investing a lot into chargers, but if I am a private company, why do I want to invest hundreds of thousands for a few fast chargers in these isolated areas, when the ones nearby might go a day or more without a single use? You're right though, even places like California with chargers everywhere experience severe congestion around major holidays, and even today they can't handle the demand at times.

Your scenario 3 is sort of what I envision needs to happen with fast charging in more urban areas if EV's are going to become more practical for a huge chunk of the population that can't charge in their garage. Sort of why I think gas stations are the ideal location in going hybrid gas/charging model. Many locations are already doing this. Where I work in New Mexico, Allsups is starting to add chargers in their more rural locations, which is ideal.

Ultimately, I don't think anyone is being complacent. The government just passed a huge infrastructure bill that specifically addresses charging. Existing charging networks continue to expand. The grand daddy of them all (Tesla) is poised to continue expansion AND allow all EV's on their network. Private companies like EVGo, continue rapidly grow. I got my first EV in 2013 with a Model S, and 8 years later the charging environment has exploded. I bet in 8 years it with have grown exponentially further.

 

[epirali]

Ultimately I think the gas companies/stations, that decide to add fast charging infrastructure to their locations are going to have a leg up. Right now I don't think it's feasible to keep an attendant at every location, as those folks might go days or in some cases weeks depending on location without a single person coming by. But a mixed use gas station that has convenience with a store, bathrooms, and staff on site if something goes wrong is a good solution.

Except charging stations can be "self reporting" or remotely monitored, or can have "report" features from consumers (which most do) when they don't work. Its more about having a serious maintenance/repair division to quickly resolve issues (which at least EA doesn't seem to have or really care,).

 

[svp6]

Not sure about this article gets it. You would argue that similar issues are present all over the world, yet Norway seems to be rapidly developing multiple hybrid charge stations (gasoline + electric) all over the place. Once EVs make up a large portion of the sales, EV stations will become a source of income and pop-up everywhere. The most important part is forcing a standard - probably CCS is the best bet.

 

[riburn3]

Except charging stations can be "self reporting" or remotely monitored, or can have "report" features from consumers (which most do) when they don't work. Its more about having a serious maintenance/repair division to quickly resolve issues (which at least EA doesn't seem to have or really care,).

They definitely have one, but their timeliness on the repairs is questionable. I've noticed the more remote the location, the longer it stays down, which I guess makes sense, but is frustrating.

I will say that at least EA thus far has arguably the best customer service experience of just about any company. You call in, get a real person almost immediately, they seem to always be as friendly as it gets, and they nearly always get the issue resolved remotely.

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