Creep Mode Turn Off - Need For Safety

[seabird]

Wait, you do realize that this is a gas engine requirement to behave this way, and EV's don't have to do this, unless they are faking ICE engine.

It is not a requirement of ICE engines. You seem to be confused about the fact that auto brake hold has been around for at least 25 years and that torque converter transmissions mechanically advanced beyond the need for idle creeping in the 1990s. They still behave this way because it is intentionally set up to ease low speed maneuvering and work consistently like every car built in the last 70 years.

It is entirely possible for an ICE car to stop fully without your foot on the brake pedal. It's not like auto hold was invented for EVs.

If I'm in a car, and I'm not pressing the accelerator, the car should not be going. It's really that simple.

There is not a single car in existence that works that way. Even Teslas can and will move when in gear if on an incline, pushed externally, or placed in neutral...and certainly will continue moving when you lift off. If you want to eliminate the possibility of movement, use the brake pedal just like every single driving instructor on earth teaches new drivers.

Right now in a porsche if I lift up on the brake without pressing hard each time for the hold, the car will go without me doing anything.

Correct. Just like every Porsche ever built, along with the default behavior of every other car on earth that isn't a Tesla, and even Teslas where creep mode is on. If you can't safely operate 99% of cars and 99.999% of non-car motor vehicles on earth, then you probably shouldn't be driving at all.

And it is funny how you just say give me a pure EV driving option and everyone is like "NO YOU ARE WRONG!"

You're not wrong for wanting the option. You are wrong for (1) believing this option MUST exist just because it's your preference, (2) fabricating a safety risk that has no basis in reality, and (3) stating a random belief about how car controls should behave when there is a universal standard running back decades that disagrees with you.

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[evdriver2016]

Even Teslas can and will move when in gear if on an incline, pushed externally, or placed in neutral

sigh this has nothing to do with the motor accelerating when the accelerator is not being pressed which is indeed a safety risk.

the “universal standard“ is around the mechanics of ICE cars which are going away.

I don’t believe this option must exist because it is my preference it is because that is how EV motors work when not being faked into being ICE

I'm sorry I never knew this was that controversial.

but wow people do not understand EVs from a frame of reference that is not ICE

and now I totally understand why Porsche is scared to make an EV that drives like an EV

Cheers.

 

[CandianPorsche83]

Agree an option would be nice. So on the OP side there. Options to me are always nice. Disagree it’s needed for safety … sorry it literally made me giggle when I read it. (Not intended to be disrespectful … I literally laughed out loud and my wife thought I was crazy)

 

[RGBArgee]

If you are an EV driver only, you are not used to creep mode. Can’t even comprehend why the car is moving with touching the “gas” pedal.

So I’m amazed that Porsche does not have a way to turn off the “car go forward without driver doing anything” mode.

For safety they really need to offer ability to turn this off.

Why ? I’ve never known an ICE auto have this functionality?? Just use brake pedal surely.

 

[Petzi]

sigh this has nothing to do with the motor accelerating when the accelerator is not being pressed which is indeed a safety risk.

the “universal standard“ is around the mechanics of ICE cars which are going away.

I don’t believe this option must exist because it is my preference it is because that is how EV motors work when not being faked into being ICE

I'm sorry I never knew this was that controversial.

but wow people do not understand EVs from a frame of reference that is not ICE

and now I totally understand why Porsche is scared to make an EV that drives like an EV

Cheers.

again: you are free to wish whatever. but there is no “security risk”

 

[MacanHH]

sigh this has nothing to do with the motor accelerating when the accelerator is not being pressed which is indeed a safety risk.

the “universal standard“ is around the mechanics of ICE cars which are going away.

I don’t believe this option must exist because it is my preference it is because that is how EV motors work when not being faked into being ICE

I'm sorry I never knew this was that controversial.

but wow people do not understand EVs from a frame of reference that is not ICE

and now I totally understand why Porsche is scared to make an EV that drives like an EV

Cheers.

I have been driving different EVs for the last 8 years. Hyundai, Volkswagen, Byd, Nio, Citroen, etc.

A few (not all) of my EVs had an option called "auto hold", which I never turned on btw.

So for pretty much all EVs, creeping was the normal and if you wanted to have it differently, you had to turn on a specific option.

Then came Tesla and turned the thing around by making "auto hold" the default and "to creep" an option. Why? Maybe just to be different ...

You are insulting the people here that they are all stuck in the ICE world.
But to me it seems like you might be stuck in the Tesla world.

And I agree with all the people here: If you care for safety, your foot belongs firmly on the brake whenever you want the car to stop. For maximum safety, there is no other way.

 

[alvaro]

TBH manuals do in fact do this as well, if you ease off the brake in 1st or 2nd … so that’s what neutral is for.

 

[seabird]

the “universal standard“ is around the mechanics of ICE cars which are going away.

The universal standard exists because standardization is important for safety. It has nothing to do with this weird "ICE vs. EV" nonsense you keep pushing and even less to do with your imaginary safety issue.

I don’t believe this option must exist because it is my preference it is because that is how EV motors work when not being faked into being ICE

For at least the fifth time now, ICE powertrains have nothing to do with it. All motor vehicles built in this century are intentionally designed to creep. Not because they can't avoid it but because they are expected to by drivers, every single one of whom has been taught how to use creeping to maneuver in tight spaces, handle traffic jams, and smoothly operate an accelerator pedal.

You're acting like electric powertrains somehow magically changed the game here. They didn't. You can build an automatic transmission car that doesn't creep. You can even build a manual transmission car that doesn't creep. All of that technology predates modern EVs.

Same reason the driver's seat is on the left in most countries even though we haven't needed to hold horse reins in over a century. Same reason we still use steering wheels pedals and not Playstation controllers even though there's no need for mechanical connections to the steering rack or brake cylinder. It's because there's no reason to change it or deviate from the standard. Tesla doing dumb nonstandard shit is not a reason for anyone else to jump onboard.

but wow people do not understand EVs from a frame of reference that is not ICE

"People" understand EVs just fine. You do not understand engineering or human factors in interface design generally.

 

[Petzi]

The universal standard exists because standardization is important for safety. It has nothing to do with this weird "ICE vs. EV" nonsense you keep pushing and even less to do with your imaginary safety issue.

For at least the fifth time now, ICE powertrains have nothing to do with it. All motor vehicles built in this century are intentionally designed to creep. Not because they can't avoid it but because they are expected to by drivers, every single one of whom has been taught how to use creeping to maneuver in tight spaces, handle traffic jams, and smoothly operate an accelerator pedal.

You're acting like electric powertrains somehow magically changed the game here. They didn't. You can build an automatic transmission car that doesn't creep. You can even build a manual transmission car that doesn't creep. All of that technology predates modern EVs.

Same reason the driver's seat is on the left in most countries even though we haven't needed to hold horse reins in over a century. Same reason we still use steering wheels pedals and not Playstation controllers even though there's no need for mechanical connections to the steering rack or brake cylinder. It's because there's no reason to change it or deviate from the standard. Tesla doing dumb nonstandard shit is not a reason for anyone else to jump onboard.

"People" understand EVs just fine. You do not understand engineering or human factors in interface design generally.

i think @evdriver2016 is just trolling us. he states on his profile that he is driving: “Model X and S going to Rivian R1S and Macan 4”.

 

[evdriver2016]

If you were inventing a car today, would you ever have "car accelerates when accelerator is not pressed" as an acceptable design?

The answer is of course not.

I’m sorry but creep is artifact of ICE engine engineering that will eventually go away.

And Porsche should definitely have an option to turn this design flaw that has been around because gas engines needed it and there is no other reason for it.

It is funny though people who against one pedal driving are somehow for this weird one pedal brake driving.

If I’m not pressing the accelerator the car motor should not be accelerating. I mean it is so simple.

Even Porsche declares that the car should not be braking unless the driver is braking. They need to apply this same reasoning to the “gas” pedal.

 

[KombuchaBioleather]

Evdriver2016 isn't going to be convinced, y'all. I think we can stop arguing about this.

 

[evdriver2016]

Thanks for the discussion. It had been interesting to try to convey on how if you have driven for many years without it and have it come back it makes no sense and feels super weird and unsafe and think Porsche should add the option for those folks who are coming from pure EV cars like Tesla, Rivian and Polestar who don't have creep because there is no need for it.

But I have clearly failed trying to pass this thought on.

will leave with this quote that sums it up

“Creep is like adding fake engine noise — it’s only there to make ICE drivers feel at home, not because it makes sense for EVs.”

 

[sor]

I don’t think people are against it or that it is controversial. People are just clarifying that it’s factually incorrect to say EV motors are supposed to not creep or that there’s a safety issue here.

Theres no particular reason for EV to behave one way or another, and as pointed out there is no reason for ICE to creep either. It’s not mechanically required and plenty of ICE cars I’ve owned didn’t creep.

Either way, creep or not, your foot needs to be on the brake when you’re stopped unless you’re using auto hold. Can’t have the car rolling inadvertently. That’s just a fact and makes the safety argument of creep vs not moot.

As a side note, I paid attention to this in my Macan test drive today. Auto hold works well, you don’t need to “press firmly”, it kicks on if you just brake to a full stop. As such this whole thing just seems like a tempest in a teapot as the Macan seems to provide the best of both worlds - it will creep if you California stop or touch the gas gently. It will hold if you just come to a full stop.

 

[sor]

I’d add that creep existing to make ICE owners feel at home isn’t quite right, it may be more accurate to say it is there to feel like an automatic transmission. Even the Porsche docs on PDK (double clutch that has no need to creep) say it does creep to be consistent with the feel of a tiptronic transmission.

Plenty of us prefer manual transmission, and of course no creep there. You’re not going to somehow blow someone’s mind and turn their world upside down by giving them a car that doesn’t creep. We know what it feels like.

It’s fair to say that experienced drivers generally are accustomed to and like the maneuverability of creep mode, and as such it’s a feature that was implemented by Porsche. However the safety argument is nonsense - the car needs to have brakes applied when you’re stopped regardless.

 

[Petzi]

I don’t think people are against it or that it is controversial. People are just clarifying that it’s factually incorrect to say EV motors are supposed to not creep or that there’s a safety issue here.

Theres no particular reason for EV to behave one way or another, and as pointed out there is no reason for ICE to creep either. It’s not mechanically required and plenty of ICE cars I’ve owned didn’t creep.

Either way, creep or not, your foot needs to be on the brake when you’re stopped unless you’re using auto hold. Can’t have the car rolling inadvertently. That’s just a fact and makes the safety argument of creep vs not moot.

As a side note, I paid attention to this in my Macan test drive today. Auto hold works well, you don’t need to “press firmly”, it kicks on if you just brake to a full stop. As such this whole thing just seems like a tempest in a teapot as the Macan seems to provide the best of both worlds - it will creep if you California stop or touch the gas gently. It will hold if you just come to a full stop.

@evdriver2016 has no macan

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