[Poll] - Porsche charging specification lie? Macan is not allowing 11 kW max charge rate - capped at 40 amps? 9.6 kW max rate.

[sor]

In the US we don’t have a three phase compatible connector on the car though.

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[dgkhn]

Porsche changed the published North America spec at some point - it originally listed 11 kW many customers purchased with that spec in mind and paid for an home EVSE install to match that spec

I did this. At two homes! It's not the end of the world, but disappointing and I believe Porsche should find a way to compensate customers who relied on this very clear misrepresentation (which persisted for many months even after it was pointed out).

 

[dgkhn]

People assuming that 11kW = 48A OBC seem not to be basing that on any official statement and blaming Porsche for their assumption being incorrect.

It seems the Macan is perfectly capable of 11kW AC on 3-phase power, including in the US as advertised. 9.6kW is the single-phase max.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true (that this is an "assumption"). Who has 3 phase residential AC in the US, and which EVSE in the US is 3-phase capable? Porsche clearly stated that US Macans could charge at 11 kW for many months. They no longer make that claim. This was both in press releases and published specs. Every other car that claims 11kW in the US that has tried in fact charges at that rate on my EVSE'S.

 

[seabird]

I did this. At two homes! It's not the end of the world, but disappointing and I believe Porsche should find a way to compensate customers who relied on this very clear misrepresentation (which persisted for many months even after it was pointed out).

Compensate for what? Worst case scenario, you overpaid by $50 installing a 48A charger instead of a 40A one.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true (that this is an "assumption").

It is 100% true that you assumed 11kW = 48A. There was never a specification that 11kW was possible on single-phase power or that the onboard charger was capable of 48A. The OBC is capable of 11kW AC because it's the exact same OBC used worldwide.

It is also true that the 11kW spec is misleading and can't be easily utilized in the US because of the rarity of 3-phase power and the limitations of the CCS1 connector, which is likely why it was revised. But this is the hazard in specifying charging speeds in kilowatts instead of amps. You have to make assumptions on how that number is calculated.

Who has 3 phase residential AC in the US, and which EVSE in the US is 3-phase capable?

Not many, but again you're assuming that residential use is the only use case for AC charging. 3-phase power is readily available in office buildings, retail and commercial spaces, even large apartment towers.

Porsche clearly stated that US Macans could charge at 11 kW for many months.

Well, no. They stated a specification that the onboard AC charger had a maximum rating of 11kW. You then assumed that that meant it would provide 48A for single-phase power, based on the further assumption that 11.5kW was being rounded down to 11kW for that specification for US homes. They might be logical and understandable assumptions, but they're assumptions all the same.

Every other car that claims 11kW in the US that has tried in fact charges at that rate on my EVSE'S.

Every EV I can think of that exceeds 40A either specifies 11.5kW, like Tesla, Rivian, and Cadillac, or explicitly states a 48A OBC like Ford. What car "claims 11kW in the US" but actually delivers 48A?

 

[daveo4EV]

Compensate for what? Worst case scenario, you overpaid by $50 installing a 48A charger instead of a 40A one.

It is 100% true that you assumed 11kW = 48A. There was never a specification that 11kW was possible on single-phase power or that the onboard charger was capable of 48A. The OBC is capable of 11kW AC because it's the exact same OBC used worldwide.

It is also true that the 11kW spec is misleading and can't be easily utilized in the US because of the rarity of 3-phase power and the limitations of the CCS1 connector, which is likely why it was revised. But this is the hazard in specifying charging speeds in kilowatts instead of amps. You have to make assumptions on how that number is calculated.

Not many, but again you're assuming that residential use is the only use case for AC charging. 3-phase power is readily available in office buildings, retail and commercial spaces, even large apartment towers.

Well, no. They stated a specification that the onboard AC charger had a maximum rating of 11kW. You then assumed that that meant it would provide 48A for single-phase power, based on the further assumption that 11.5kW was being rounded down to 11kW for that specification for US homes. They might be logical and understandable assumptions, but they're assumptions all the same.

Every EV I can think of that exceeds 40A either specifies 11.5kW, like Tesla, Rivian, and Cadillac, or explicitly states a 48A OBC like Ford. What car "claims 11kW in the US" but actually delivers 48A?

you are simply wrong - Porsche ships a 11 kW EV in the US - it's the Taycan - it's charged at 11 kW since introduction - it's reasonable to assume when porsche claimed the Macan could do 11 kW it would do it the same way the Taycan did it on North American single phase 240V 48 amp EVSEs

Porsche screwed up - quit trying to make excused for them. There is NO SUCH thing as 3 phase North American EVSE - the J-1772 standard does not have enough electrical conductors for 3 phase charging - and many many many North American EV's charge at 11 kW or more - including VW and Audi products.

porsche scewed up - plain and simple.

 

[ColdCase]

There is often mention of three phase vs single phase power here. In theory, given the same wire gauge, one can supply more power safely via 3 phase because there are three wires to share the load.

What seems to be missing in the discussion here is that when an EVSE is supplied with three phases, they only use two of the legs and doing the math actually results in less power available. (220/240 vs ~200 volts). I don't believe there is an EV that accepts three power conductors for the three phases.

In the US most homes are supplied with 115V per leg, total of 230. Some areas get 120 per leg, total of 240.

Just saying that it is hard to compare apples to oranges, there are so many variables and a lack of understanding, or consideration of every nuance. But it is fun.

When I first received my Macan, it indicated close to 11 kW, but now 9.4 typically. I can see it vary from 9.0 to 9.6 at home and public level 2 EVSEs.

My theory is Macan's AC/DC converter (charger) evaluates the "quality" of the power being supplied and adjusts its input accordingly. It grabs max power only from clean sources. Why it is different than the Taycan, don't have a clue. I could guess they need added protection for a week point that Taycan doesn't have.

Our data centers full of computers have large power interfaces that clean up commercial power to keep the computers running smoothly.

Doesn't EU mostly use 50Hz on their power grid? Or am I way behind the times?

 

[seabird]

you are simply wrong - Porsche ships a 11 kW EV in the US - it's the Taycan - it's charged at 11 kW since introduction

Taycans without the 19.2kW/22kW charger upgrade are rated to charge at 9.6kW (40A @ 240V), just like a Macan. I've seen Taycans hit slightly above 10kW, especially early models before the software update, but no Taycan out there is getting the sustained 11.5kW that a 48A OBC would provide.

Porsche screwed up - quit trying to make excused for them.

There's nothing to excuse. The OBC is behaving exactly like an 11kW AC, 3-phase and not as a 48A 11.5kW single phase OBC, as well documented by owners in this thread, and by their specified charging times being based on 9.6kW speeds in the US and 11kW three-phase speeds everywhere where there is 3-phase power. Should they have provided additional detail about localized limitations around reaching 11kW? Probably yes. Is it confusing? Sure. Is it a conspiracy or an engineering failure? No.

There is no such a thing as an "11kW" OBC in the US. 40A is 9.6kW and 48A is 11.5kW. The charging difference is insignificant, and the technical details are far beyond what can be conveyed in a single bullet on a spec sheet.

 

[refazi]

Taycans without the 19.2kW/22kW charger upgrade are rated to charge at 9.6kW (40A @ 240V), just like a Macan. I've seen Taycans hit slightly above 10kW, especially early models before the software update, but no Taycan out there is getting the sustained 11.5kW that a 48A OBC would provide.

There's nothing to excuse. The OBC is behaving exactly like an 11kW AC, 3-phase and not as a 48A 11.5kW single phase OBC, as well documented by owners in this thread, and by their specified charging times being based on 9.6kW speeds in the US and 11kW three-phase speeds everywhere where there is 3-phase power. Should they have provided additional detail about localized limitations around reaching 11kW? Probably yes. Is it confusing? Sure. Is it a conspiracy or an engineering failure? No.

There is no such a thing as an "11kW" OBC in the US. 40A is 9.6kW and 48A is 11.5kW. The charging difference is insignificant, and the technical details are far beyond what can be conveyed in a single bullet on a spec sheet.

That's not correct, i had 6 taycans, some had 11kwh and 19.2kwh onboard and others like my MY25 has 7.2 (40amp!)
My Macan can't pull over 48 amp while the Taycan and other vehicles i charge here pull the full 50amp my charger is rated to.

 

[daveo4EV]

Taycans without the 19.2kW/22kW charger upgrade are rated to charge at 9.6kW (40A @ 240V), just like a Macan. I've seen Taycans hit slightly above 10kW, especially early models before the software update, but no Taycan out there is getting the sustained 11.5kW that a 48A OBC would provide.

There's nothing to excuse. The OBC is behaving exactly like an 11kW AC, 3-phase and not as a 48A 11.5kW single phase OBC, as well documented by owners in this thread, and by their specified charging times being based on 9.6kW speeds in the US and 11kW three-phase speeds everywhere where there is 3-phase power. Should they have provided additional detail about localized limitations around reaching 11kW? Probably yes. Is it confusing? Sure. Is it a conspiracy or an engineering failure? No.

There is no such a thing as an "11kW" OBC in the US. 40A is 9.6kW and 48A is 11.5kW. The charging difference is insignificant, and the technical details are far beyond what can be conveyed in a single bullet on a spec sheet.

this is incorrect - and Taycan shipped with 11 kW on board charger for years…

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/factual-report-just-data-11-kw-charge-rate.2220/
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...-charger-48-amps-not-max-9-6-kw-40-amps.1793/

August of 2020 the Taycan charge at over 10 kW as reported in the vehicle - with provided with 9.6 kW charger (40 amps) Taycan reports 8.68 kW charge rate - at that time we all learned Taycan reports power being delivered to the battery post loss - not the raw "input" power…

if the car "reports" it's charging at more than 9.6 kW then it's more than 40 amp charger - 9.6 kW _IS_ maximum power for 40 amp circuit - and if the OBC was limited to 9.6 kW it would never charge at 10.48 kW which only makes sense when the EVSE is supplying 48 amp @ 240 volt - or an 11 kW raw AC power rate…

EVES's that show the raw AC power delivery have always shown Taycan taking raw 9.6 and 11 kW loads depending on circuit size/configurations…

you are simply factually wrong and your understanding is deeply flawed.

there are 11 kW OBC's and 48 amps @ 240v is 11 kW raw - my friend Audi eTron charges at 11 kW raw rate…as do several other EV's on the market

I"m not sure why you're defending Porsche on this obvious screw up.

Porsche is only now reducing Taycan max charge rate because their OBC design has proven to be faulty and they are trying to cover their ass and not lose their shirts on warranty replacements…

here is my 2020 Taycan charing from a 40 amp EVSE (50 amp breaker) - it reports 8.6 kW which is about right for 9.6 kW raw AC power rate once you account for charging loss's

here is my 2020 Taycan charging from a 19.2 kW EVSE (80 amp charge rate, 100 amp breaker)_10.46 kW which is about appropriate for charging losses…

same car, same OBC, different EVSE's - one configured for 40/50 amps, and one configured for 80/100 amps - I got the same 10.48 kW charge rate on a 48/60 amp EVSE with my standard Taycan (the 19.2 kW option was not available for 2020 MY).

also 20% mistatement is not trivial and is a material difference in charging capabilities.

 

[seabird]

this is incorrect -

Citing yourself as evidence hardly improves your argument.

Taycan shipped with 11 kW on board charger for years…

In exactly the same way the Macan has an 11kW onboard charger, yes.

Here are your clues:

• Porsche has consistently published L2 charge time in the US using 9.6kW as the assumed charging speed, not 11kW.
• Plugging a Tesla or other actual 48A rated EV into an EVSE consistently yields rates over 11kW, but no Taycan has hit more than ~10.5 kW.
• Extensive posts by Taycan owners unable to get above 9.6kW consistently, showing 10+ rates to be outliers among the customer base.
• The total nonexistence of "11kw" chargers as a rated limit in the US, except as rounded down from 11.5kW/48A, which then wouldn't be rated at 11kW in ROW, as it'd be a 19kW OBC there.
• The design rating of a system does not magically mean it's impossibly to exceed that rating (i.e., speeds over 9.6 do not prove what you claim).
• The same overdrive game as people with cars rated for 150kW DCFC seeing 160+kW on the display and thinking they've gotten a "secret upgrade" because they misunderstand the effect of calculation errors and voltage deviations.

You may be super invested in this detailed fictional reality, having posted over 100 times on this topic and arguing without evidence against dozens of people, but before accusing other people of having a flawed understanding when you have no background, qualifications, or evidence to support your claims, ask yourself, which is more likely:

1. A vast conspiracy amongst engineers who were somehow capable of designing, testing, and certifying against regulatory requirements but wanted to rob you of an hour of L2 charging, that only you are somehow smart enough to identify but have been absolutely foiled in proving, orrrr

2. The 11kW OBC specification, which appears in exactly one place, is a global spec drawn into a CMS that isn't localized with great precision because it's nuanced and not a promise for 11kW single phase charging from a US residential outlet.

Much like how hitting that 11kW in EU requires 3-phase power, US single phase is limited to a rated 9.6kW. Or how UK single phase maxes out at 7.2kW, or that in some countries due to local code it's 5kW if not hardwired, and everywhere is limited by a combination of connector, outlet, and circuit breakers. And all of this is occurring on the same physical charger, despite not all countries or owners being able to realize the 11kW maximum.

also 20% mistatement is not trivial and is a material difference in charging capabilities.

9.6 is 87% of 11, which is not a 20% deviation even if it were somehow claimed that any Porsche would charge at 11kW AC single phase in the US, which, again, is a statement Porsche has never made.

I'm with you that it's confusing and unclear. I am totally against the repeated victim complex you're tying to it, or the baseless accusations of fraud, malice, and incompetence you're fanning when you have absolutely no proof.

 

[jwatte]

You have to make assumptions on how that number is calculated.

There are, in fact, >11 kW wall connectors for the home in the US.
Other US brands support up to 19.2 kW on regular wall connectors.
Porsche sells an EVSE that they can have installed in my garage if I pay for it. (The Macan EV also doesn't do 11 kW charging on this EVSE)

There is no "assuming" needed. The market is very clear what this means, and Porsche didn't live up to this meaning. Why is this so hard to accept?

If someone bought the car in the US and "11 kW charging" is on the Monroney sticker, and Porsche can't make it charge at that rate on a suitably rated J-1772 EVSE in the US, then Porsche has to buy it back as a lemon, should the buyer choose to go that route. (In most states.) If that label *wasn't* on the Monroney sticker, well, the lines get blurrier what the law requires, but certainly, if a number is adverised and not reached, it's not great marketing. Let's say they advertise a 2.6 second 0-60 number, but then that turns out to only happen when running downhill above 10,000 feet of height? A reasonable consumer would not "assume" that those were the conditions necessary.

Is this difference actually meaningful enough that an otherwise happy owner would go through that hassle? I doubt it. If I wanted faster home charging, I'd be rocking a Vistiq right now.
The facts here seem exceedingly clear, so I don't even understand what the concern is.

 

[seabird]

There are, in fact, >11 kW wall connectors for the home in the US.

No one has said otherwise.

There are 3.8kW, 6kW, 7.6kW, 9.6kW, 11.5kW, 15.4kW, and 19.2kW L2 service options in the US. But "11kW" is not one of them, falling between 9.6 and 11.5. Outside the US, 11kW is a possible 3-phase charging speed.

So if you see 11kW, you have to make one of 3 assumptions: (1) it "really" means 11.5kW single phase, (2) it only guarantees 9.6 because 11 is less than 11.5, or (3) it's a global spec that needs more context to understand the local limitations.

The people who are angry all made assumption #1.

There is no "assuming" needed. The market is very clear what this means, and Porsche didn't live up to this meaning. Why is this so hard to accept?

That statement, by definition, is an assumption. I'm not sure why people are struggling with this. Sensible or not, you are making an assumption that the global equipment listing "11kW max onboard charger" means or is intended to mean that you can achieve that from a US residential outlet.

It's a very understandable assumption, but it is an assumption. "Porsche lied" is also assuming a lot of facts not in evidence. Porsche was unclear or misleading. That is apparent by the confusion here. But there is no evidence of intent to mislead or overstate performance, especially when all the time-based charging performance specs are using 9.6kW as the rate.

If someone bought the car in the US and "11 kW charging" is on the Monroney sticker

But it isn't.

Let's say they advertise a 2.6 second 0-60 number, but then that turns out to only happen when running downhill above 10,000 feet of height?

That's exactly what happens in the age of 1-foot rollouts, track modes, launch control, and temporary boost.

Every single Porsche charging time calculation is based on 9.6kW charging speed, for both Taycan and Macan. There's only one reference, pulled from the generic specifications, where it says 11kW, and that refers to the physical OBC, which does indeed work at 11kW.

The entire charging chain in the US does not allow for that to happen, in exactly the same way that various laws around plug-in vs. hardwired don't necessarily allow either the single-phase or 3-phase maxes to be achieved in other countries. Porsche probably should have put a more explicit asterisk there and said local codes and equipment may vary.

But to suggest anything sinister or malicious behind it is ridiculous when the simple explanation is that it's just a misunderstanding is silly.

Is this difference actually meaningful enough that an otherwise happy owner would go through that hassle? I doubt it. If I wanted faster home charging, I'd be rocking a Vistiq right now.
The facts here seem exceedingly clear, so I don't even understand what the concern is.

On this, we agree.

 

[daveo4EV]

8 / 40 =0.2 = or 20%

9.6 kw = 40 amps
11 kw = 48 amps

the short fall is 8 amps

which is 20%

basic math.

 

[seabird]

You are complaining about a labeling discrepancy between 9.6kW and 11kW, not 40A and 48A, which appears nowhere in the specs. 11kW would also be 46A, not 48. You're engaging in the same obfuscation you're accusing Porsche of doing, except that you're plainly doing it intentionally, since you can calculate the difference between 9.6 and 11 that supposedly ripped you off.

Porsche has never specified 48A or 11.5kW charging on single phase power, anywhere. All the charging times advertised for the US are based on 9.6kW L2 speeds. You made the assumption that "up to 11kW", which is used worldwide where different code and equipment combinations result in max speeds of anywhere from 4kW to 11kW, somehow meant "will definitely charge at 11.5kW in the US" and then spun it into a whole horror story rather than simply a confusing statement requiring clarification.

The persistent disingenuity is appalling, but unsurprising from someone with no qualifications, training, or experience in the field, without possession of the facts, and whose only purpose in pushing this fictitious conspiracy seems to be to stir up controversy, malign engineers, declare Porsche to be lying, and accuse other people of not knowing what they're talking about when you don't understand what's going on.

These are not signs of an open mind, a scientific approach, or a good faith argument.

 

[jwatte]

Isn't it also totally possible that normal human beings just use "11 kW" as short-hand for 11.5 kW?

If your argument is that "they announced 11 kW but because the typical standard is 11.5 kW people shouldn't have believed them," then that's an argument you can make (and maybe even are making) but chances are you're unique in the world on that

Anyway, enjoy!

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